ElectroGravitic Metal Combination?

transcript and additional material courtesy of Rod Fredlund

The following file consists of a combination of details on certain elements purported to have 'electrogravitic' properties, a transcript from the fascinating Art Bell radio talk show and what is claimed to be experimental verification of erratic movement of such material. The information was provided to KeelyNet through the very considerate efforts and courtesy of Rod Fredlund (rod.f@ix.netcom.com) (tell him if you liked it and say THANKS!)

Magnesium/Bismuth Layering & Electrogravity


Bismuth is a white, crystalline, brittle metal with a pinkish tinge. Bismuth is the most diamagnetic of all metals, and the thermal conductivity is lower than any metal, except mercury. It has a high electrical resistance, and has the highest Hall effect of any metal (that is, the greatest increase in electrical resistance when placed in a magnetic field). The metal is used as a thermocouple material (has highest negativity known).


is used in computers for radio-frequency shielding.


is used in photocopiers (conducts electricity when illuminated).

What follows is a transcript of the first 15 minute of the Art Bell show that was broadcast on 8-6-96. You can currently listen to this interview if you have an internet connection and Real Audio software by following this link "http://ww2.audionet.com/pub/kcnr/abell/9608/abell0806.ram"

If you would like to find out more about this piece of material including pictures and more Real Audio clips, then follow this link "http://www.artbell.com/art/roscrash.html"

The parties to this interview are...ART - Art Bell / DAN - Dan (No last name mentioned) / LINDA - Linda Howe

LINDA: ... magnesium zinc alloy, and on Tuesday July 2, the university scientist made a polished cross section of the layered material to analyze further with Wave Dispersive Spectroscopy which is more refined than the EDS. The WDS did not find any other elements, but we now have more accurate percentages on the magnesium and zinc. There is a range from 97 to about 97- 1/2% magnesium and 3% to 2-1/2% zinc in each of those 100 to 200 micron layers of the magnesium zinc, so its almost entirely magnesium with about 3% zinc.

ART: All right.

LINDA: The pure bismuth layers are 1 to 4 microns thick in a slightly wavy pattern and nothing else but bismuth was found. Again, no oxygen has come up, no zirconium, no other elements - just these 3. And among the many faxes that we have received from listeners so far about the layered material, the one from Dan caught my attention and indicated he had professional knowledge that would relate the material to antigravity. He had worked from 1973 to 1980 for an organization called Aeronautical Systems Division at Edwards Air Force Base in California with some assignments at Wright Patterson in Ohio. Dan received bachelors degrees in physics, aerospace engineering and computer science from California Polytecnic State University, masters degrees in computer science and aerospace engineering fromUniversity of California at Berkley and then received his Ph.D. in physics in 1974 after he had already begun work as a civilian scientist for the Air Force. I called him last Sunday and did a long recorded interview during the day with his permission with the agreement that I would not use his name. In a normal world without tapped phones, only Dan and I should have had any knowledge about our discussion because I wanted more time to study what he said and edit it for a Dreamland report later, but as you know Art, Friday afternoon July 5th, Dan had a visit by 3 men in a dark blue Chevy sedan, 2 of which came to his door and presented Defense Intelligence Agency identification and said they needed to talk to him. This is Dan's description of what happened on Friday...

(Note, there might some slight differences in wording due to transciption from the Real Audio, mostly in wording and spelling but not details....>>> Jerry)

DAN: The doorbell rang, I went and opened it and there were 2 gentlemen standing there.


DAN: 2. A fellow was still in the sedan and they presented identification and asked if they could come in and chat for a while.

LINDA: And what was the ID they showed?

DAN: The standard DIA IDs.

LINDA: Defense Intelligence Agency.

DAN: Yes - there was no question that that was where they were from. It wasn't... I was convinced as soon as I saw them it wasn't a game.

LINDA: And did the badges themselves or the ID they showed say Defense Intelligence Agency?

DAN: Yes.


DAN: It said typical, looks like a typical, almost like a business card, with photo ID.


DAN: So I invited them in and they were very straight-forward about their questions, asked me if I had been in communication with any journalists. And I said what subject, what are you talking about. They said let me be very frank about this, have you been talking to anybody about work you did in the 70's? And I said yes. Like I said there was certainly no reason to lie about it for crimeny sakes!

LINDA: Right

DAN: I know the organization. And, well they came right out and asked the name. Have you been talking to Linda Howe? I said I certainly have. She's a very reputable science journalist, she's currently investigating some stuff that was shipped to Mr. Art Bell, and I felt I had some information that was worthwhile that I could provide to them.

LINDA: And what did they say to that?

DAN: There was really no comment. They were once again rather tight-lipped about it. And I said do you have any documentation, are you going to arrest me or what? They said you know we don't need any documentation to do that. Was kinda there response.

LINDA: They don't need documentation to arrest you.

DAN: Yeah.

LINDA: What does that mean really?

DAN: Well, I think that they, I think its, its probably one of those games that all of a sudden you're above the law or they're above the law when you're working with those kinds of individuals. They don't need to go to a court and get anything, they can kinda haul me away if they want to.

LINDA: Can that really happen?

DAN: Yeah it can happen. And I said well I think you'd be hard pressed to do it because I've been in conversation, your aware that I've been in conversation and I have obviously not talked about any State secrets or anything of that nature. Can you argue with me about that? And there was no comment. But they wanted to go through about 2 hours of you know questions and answers, and I'm in the process of trying to write everything down right now, to go into details on all that stuff may be the best offense besides being public. So "garble" to some degree to start talking and everything. But they were very (persistent), it was just the same questions over and over and over again, I went through that same crap back in the early 80's, almost all through the 80's whenever I left the country and come back into the States I'd hit the passport place, you know where you go through the lines to get your passport stamped, and all of a sudden, would you follow me please? Oh God, here we go! There I am in some room for 4 or 5 hours asking 20 questions. Where've ya been and who've ya talked to, have you been anywhere else, are you sure?

LINDA: Civilian work?

DAN: Yeah it was all civilian at that time...

LINDA: And you would look at these Q&As as basically harassment in saying we are on top of you no matter where you go.

DAN: Yeah, it was like I guess I'm going to have to put up with this crap forever, was kinda the attitude I got. Then finally, oh the last dozen or so trips I made they kinda went away and quit asking me every time and like I said I finally came to the conclusion, well, it looks like maybe they don't care about me anymore, I kinda gotten that feeling. And then of course yesterday everything just came rushing back. Oh God, here I am again.

LINDA: Did they say anything specifically about the layered material?

DAN: No. There was no conversations about anything we discussed or materials or anything like that. I'm convinced that the people really didn't know the whys and whatfors, I'm sure they were just soldiers sent out.

LINDA: To ask you if you had been talking to me?

DAN: Yep. The bottom line is as far as I can tell they've been monitoring your stuff for probably 3 to 4 weeks. And so you came back and started talking about materials and stuff like that then all of a sudden the monitoring system went into place.

LINDA: Right. Well, we figured such but this would suggest that your phone, my phone are probably tapped, or..

DAN: There's no reason not to hide behind it, ya know?

LINDA: Yeah that's right.

DAN: I'm not going to go to some pay-phone and call you, what the hell good is that going to do?

LINDA: No, un-unh, and what are we doing? We're simply talking about material that may have come from a craft that is not from this Earth and why is this considered to be a secret suppressed at all cost? Why?

DAN: Well, you know, why's it such a sensitive area?

LINDA: Yeah!

DAN: That beats the heck out of me. I don't know and that's not the word I'd use because I'd start using 4 letter metaphors real easily..

LINDA: Yeah.

DAN: at that point. But, you know, it just pisses me off, excuse my English.

LINDA: Now I would like to go back to what Dan told me over the phone before the Defense Intelligence agents showed up at his door step.

ART: All right. All right, now listen carefully there's a slight pause here this is a very interesting interview coming up here to why they showed up who knows.

< There is a tape miscue but then interview begins>

DAN: I worked for the Air Force from 1973 to 1980, worked for Wright Patterson Air Force Base and at Edwards Air Force Base.

LINDA: Right.

DAN: that period of time worked for a organization called Aeronautical Systems Division.

LINDA: Well, did the government come to you and ask you to work for it or did you go to the government?

DAN: They came to me.

LINDA: How did it happen?

DAN: I got a phone call, a professor called me in 73, in late 73 and said we have an opportunity, they want the brightest of the bright we have here and we gave them your name and I got a call from a fellow and interviewed him, it kinda just went that way.

LINDA: And your work then was what?

DAN: Well it was involved in aeronautical engineering, basically in evaluations.

LINDA: But did you have specific materials you were trying to analyze, back engineer, what was the nature of your work?

DAN: I was doing a lot of reverse engineer type work.

LINDA: And the materials you were reverse engineering were from where?

DAN: Everywhere, basically. There was some pretty exotic stuff.

LINDA: Did you know what its source was?

DAN: I, in some cases no.

LINDA: Well, was it ever said to you this was from an extra-terrestrial craft?

DAN: No, I never heard that

LINDA: Did you, those of you who were working on the back engineering, did you infer you were working on extra-terrestrial craft pieces?

DAN: Well sometimes we kinda chuckled, you know, and said well "I wonder if" type stuff, but there was never really any statements to that effect or anything. There was, like I, there was fairly exotic stuff we were working with.

LINDA: Would you have actually seen and handled bismuth and magnesium in layers before?

DAN: Yes.

LINDA: And did it come in than as an unknown?

DAN: Yes, and it left as one as well.

LINDA: And it left as an unknown?

DAN: Yes

LINDA: And this would have been in the context of military research?

DAN: Yes.

LINDA: Did you ever have a discussion with anybody about the possible application of these bismuth magnesium layers?

DAN: Not really. At that time when I, because typically the stuff is very, is extremely, well ... what term do I want to use?... very well there's a big box around you, which means you don't have 4 or 5 people looking at the same thing, so your kinda isolated in some of the thing you do. Quite frankly there was, number 1, no one to talk to, number 2, if I did start talking about some of the stuff they wouldn't believe it anyway, and number 3, I'd probably end up in jail or dead and I'm not sure in which order that may take place.

LINDA: So you could do research on whatever your isolated task was, but you had no colleagues with which to discuss it?

DAN: Not necessarily. Only in very limited cases would there be other people that would get involved.

LINDA: Now in terms of this material, the thin layered bismuth and magnesium, what is your personal, best educated, experiential guess about its function?

DAN: Its electrogravitic material.

LINDA: Now, would you elaborate on electrogravitic.

DAN: Well, what electrogravitics is is basically antigravity. I'll give you that statement. Its basically antigravity per se. Now all of a sudden that coins up all sorts of mythical nonsense about, you know the things you could do or you could think of, you know, it comes from science fiction a lot, where you hear that term antigravity. But in fact there is a very strong basis of electrogravitics that are around. In the case of bismuth, its basically, as I said in that FAX, a diamagnetic material which means it tends to repel...

LINDA: a magnetic field.

DAN: a magnetic field. And there was very strange things that were bound with bismuth as basically positive charges were added to it, you know, putting a field, a positive electron field into the bismuth. As a matter of fact there were very, they were very dramatic, some of the things that they found. Now a lot of this goes all the way back to 1917.

LINDA: OK. And what was the most dramatic thing that would happen as you increased the positive flow into bismuth?

DAN: Well, basically you would see a mass reduction, basically you could see the mass of the material reduce or the weight reduce, anything of that nature to the point where it could come to zero.

LINDA: Have you ever seen material actually rise in the air when subjected to a strong voltage?

DAN: I can't talk about that.

LINDA: But, I'm going to deduce that the outcome of doing this and essentially what's happening is that the bismuth is being provoked to resist the magnetic field by the voltage, correct?

DAN: Absolutely. And that's the entire theory behind a lot of the work that I've provided to you. And if you could theoretically build a vehicle that the mass of it became less than zero then you would by definition have a lifting body.

LINDA: And he is having a lifting body in part of an antigravitic science Art, that for some reason our government has somehow wanted to suppress all these years.

ART: All right, well we're going to hold it there, the essence of the Linda Howe interview on Sunday...

The following is an email regarding experiments with this Layered BiMgZn material..

Travis Taylor, (a DOD scientist?), has been working on this material and has applied a 500 kv static electric field to a piece of this material and said that it "really started jumping about". This experiment is supposed to be on videotape. I just hope he took precautions to prevent this from being an electrostatic attraction effect. If he did, this would seem to be an important confirmation that this is an electrogravitic material well worth further study. - Rod

Vanguard Sciences comments

Years ago, while studying some old documents from a now defunct UFO group in England, I came across a short comment claiming that one of their members had done experiments with dissimilar metals. He used two disks of the same dimension and thickness but of two different materials, copper and zinc (as I recall, it was many years ago).

The disks were kept very close together and rotated in opposite directions. The claim was they levitated when spun, though the comment did not specify the requirement for high voltage as in the case of the Biefeld/Brown effect.

It was simply rotation of mass which is more consistent with Otis T. Carr, Bruce DePalma and Dr. Harold Aspden with their claims of anomalous inertial or gravitic effects associated with rotating mass.

Speaking of inertia and gravity reduction, an interesting story was told to me at the recent Low Level Energy Conference by Michael Roberts, President of the Association for Push Gravity Research.

One day a few years ago, he got a phone call at his home in Waco. It was from a fellow who had stopped in Waco and wanted to meet Michael at a local mall. Michael drove out there and the man was parked, in his late model Jeep in a remote section of the parking lot. They shook hands and talked a bit.

The man said he would like to show Michael what he had been working on. The Jeep engine was off, the vehicle was put in neutral and was not braked in any way. Michael was asked to push the vehicle. He did so with both hands, meeting an expected amount of resistance before he got it moving.

The man got in and braked the vehicle. He then showed Michael 4 mystery boxes (each about 12" X 6" X 4") mounted in the top of each wheel well of the Jeep. Each box had an electrical cable that led under the hood. Michael was not allowed to see under the hood.

Immediately after the push test, the man got in the Jeep and flicked a toggle switch which had been installed under the dashboard. Michael was then asked to push the Jeep again, this time it moved with the light touch of one hand.

The man would say nothing about the secret to this miracle was accomplished, he just wanted to show Michael that it was possible and there were those who had achieved it. This startling anecdote of course caused me to ask who the guy was, you know phone number, address and such. Michael said he'd misplaced that information but he remembered the Jeep had KANSAS LICENSE PLATES.....

Kind of fits doesn't it since the Wizard of OZ has definite links to Kansas, eh, Dorothy?

In discussing this with my friend Dan Davidson, he suggested the four boxes acted to provide a stabilized buoyancy type field, like pontoons on a boat. The use of only one would deflect the incoming gravity in one localized area, thus creating an imbalance. Whereas one unit over each wheel would equally distribute the deflection around the center of mass of the Jeep. Makes sense to me.

Anybody know this guy in Kansas? Or anything else that relates to how such a device would work? Please share it with us here at KeelyNet! Thanks...>>> Jerry